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Don't Sass Me by wickedorin Don't Sass Me by wickedorin
I would always like to think that I live in a world where people are going to appreciate the time and effort put into hand-made things, especially if they're contacting me about a commission... but that's not always the case. Hence this submission and this page, which will likely be linked to automatically in order to silence complainers before they get the chance to whine about pricing based on things that seem utterly obvious to those of us who are artists: effort and time.

I am not anti-customer in the least bit; I've been wonderfully lucky to meet fantastic people through conventions and even just Etsy conversations regarding a sale. But I am absolutely anti-brat. I would never expect what I do to be appreciated by everyone, but questioning the value behind a price tag will be met with a curt, "When you make your own, then you can price it however you want." I consider that my polite response.

Beads do not magically merge together. I know, I'd love it if that happened, too. Telepathy would be awesome. The set-up is relatively simple: beads, thread, needle. The time, effort, and work it takes to understand and develop technique is not so simple. While weaving individual beads together without a loom may be the most exceptionally time-consuming method of beading, it's also the strongest. The technique I've picked up has four high-quality rayon threads passing through each and every single bead, and quite often that increased to six threads or more depending on the design. The finished piece is strong and flexible, and unlikely to need repair work unless something catastrophic happens. (Er, like being mangled in a turbine, maybe?)

If it's not exceedingly obvious, the more beads are involved, the more time something takes to put together. Also, the more bead colors involved in a design, the more the initial cost of said design. (The Link coaster, by the way, was made by the talented Schala-Kitty and has become my bead holder.)

My own pricing is not based strictly on the somewhat standard "hours x minimum wage + cost of materials" equation. This is, in part, because there comes a point of extreme unfairness. (The Hylian Royal Crest Corset Cuff, for instance, would be well over $400.) Also, it's a little impossible to get an exact number of hours. One reason being that, due to my living situation, I commonly work in chunks of time all day long, starting from shortly after I have breakfast (9:30-ish AM) up until midnight (and sometimes even later, despite attempts to not do that for the sake of my wrist). There are some days when I manage to work well over 8 hours (which is insane), and others when 4 hours is all I can manage.

I strive to do good work. I've managed to get a good track record. I am insanely devoted to all of my crafts, and I plan to keep learning and improving both everything that I already do and plenty more. I will not, however, pretend to tolerate spoiled brats for the sake of a sale.
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:iconcybelemoon:
cybelemoon Featured By Owner 1 day ago  Hobbyist General Artist
Exactly!   SOOOOooooo understand!  I never ask someone to give me a deal or discount, because I know that if it were me I wouldn't be able to really afford to do so and well ... it means another loaf of bread not bought.  I really hate it when family and friends ask for things expecting to be given them or for them to only have to pay for materials.  It's like, of all people they are the ones who should understand it the most because they see me and my situation.  And even if I weren't disabled and struggling, I would still be upset because it is MY TIME that is put into it.  But with jewelry and paintings (especially) if you don't have some "brand name" attached and aren't in the right financial market... your screwed.  I'm still fighting.  I finally found someone the other day that values my work and understands it.  She is going to pass my cards around her colleagues and friends and they all have money, some enough to burn.  Crossing fingers that it works.  I wish for you the success you deserve!!!   :hug:
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:iconspyersecol:
SpyerSecol Featured By Owner Nov 19, 2013  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
I totally agree. Also you should add presentation of the items. Remember the line from Megamind? "You're no super villain!"  "Oh yea, what's the difference?" "PRESENTATION!"
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner Nov 21, 2013  Professional General Artist
*snort*  This is an excellent point!
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:iconjuno-gemini:
Juno-Gemini Featured By Owner Jun 24, 2012  Professional Traditional Artist
I know the feeling. For the time, labour, and materials cost put into a lot of the detailed dream catchers I make people seem to think I'll sell them super cheap just because they saw a machine made one with plastic beads in a store (I recall someone demanding a large one for five bucks because it was how much the one they bought from a gardening store was) I wish some of the would be customers would understand the amount of work that goes into such detailed things like your lovely work arent penny cheap for a reason.
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner Jun 25, 2012  Professional General Artist
I've heard a lot of the blame being put on a "Walmart culture", and I suppose I can see the point there... but from some interactions I wonder if it's not more of a "spoiled brat culture".

That may be beside the point, though. *grin* Your dream catchers are lovely (and shiny!) and perhaps the next time someone demands something for $5 you should photograph exactly how much you feel $5 worth of work actually is. I've managed to quickly and painlessly end conversations this way. Heh.
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:iconjuno-gemini:
Juno-Gemini Featured By Owner Jun 25, 2012  Professional Traditional Artist
I think its a mix of both, they see something cheap in a store then they want something specially made for them just as cheap cause 'all your competitor stores are doing it' and then theres just flat out cheap and rude people who think there entitled to pay little at all (and some have the gall to demand things free, oh god I don't understand that logic) though sometimes when they want it super cheap I can see how a few may not understand how much work and money goes into making something, others like I said are just rude.

lol thats a good idea actually. I had the idea a while back that the next time I made one, for the hell of it or for someone, I would time each part, and write the broken down prices for each thing used in the craft. maybe then they'll see where we are coming from. Wouldn't hurt to do with everything else I make. :T
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:iconjohnsonarmsprops:
JohnsonArmsProps Featured By Owner Jul 12, 2011  Professional Artisan Crafter
Very cool indeed!
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner Jul 17, 2011  Professional General Artist
As I said, it is madness. But it is shiny. *grin*
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:iconjohnsonarmsprops:
JohnsonArmsProps Featured By Owner Jul 18, 2011  Professional Artisan Crafter
I happen to like both! ;) All the best to you with this
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:iconpahein:
pahein Featured By Owner Jun 8, 2011  Professional General Artist
Haaah, this is an awesome concept.

I might have to do this for my large needlefelts. I've gotten some very uninformed people asking me for stuff...
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner Jun 8, 2011  Professional General Artist
Oh please do. I'm so tired of seeing artists who aren't appreciated for their work.

And you have broken my poor little mind with that life-sized Mew. Serious awesome.
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:iconpahein:
pahein Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2011  Professional General Artist
Sadly, many people will never understand the plain fact that art takes as much practice and dedication as anything else does. Most people are smart enough to get the point, but in my experience, they just don't think about it.

Well look who's talking. I found you because of the daily deviation, but geez. That thing has multiple strings through each bead? I could barely get my bead loom to work, let alone force my thread through any one bead more than once or twice.

Thank you, though. :meow:
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2011  Professional General Artist
Sometimes I have to wonder if there are some people who have just never made anything in their lives. And it scares me. But to be fair I have had a lot of people who have changed their attitude dramatically when they were actually told how much work was involved, so maybe it's just not thought about. But I am from a very different universe where I can't seem to stop doing things...

Ahem, anyway. Beads do still shatter from time to time. And there is cursing and back-tracking and more cursing and then it can be pretended to have never happened.
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:iconpahein:
pahein Featured By Owner Jun 9, 2011  Professional General Artist
It's passion that keeps and artist eternally going back to their art, just like it's passion that keeps an athlete training for the Olympics. I don't think I've met someone without passion, but I do know that some people have passions they cannot for some reason pursue. In those cases, I'd imagine they understand the feeling of need but not the actual trials and commitment involved. The rest of the things they learned were forced onto them by the universe, and thus not really great for a lesson.

There's... backtracking? I'm gaining more respect for your craft than I had before. I mean, backtracking in felting usually means just making things denser until they approximate the form I want. Which is work, but it's not like... re-doing stuff. Arrglghblraghle. I can't believe you're selling that hylian crest wrist cuff for only $120. I mean, I get it, otherwise it won't sell for a long time, but still.
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner Jun 13, 2011  Professional General Artist
It is passion or it is blissful self-imposed ignorance, or perhaps something like the two. *grin* I just had an overwhelming need to do what I loved. ...Even if these things clearly do not love me back, or it's a seriously screwed-up relationship. The end product is good! The journey to the end product is... often described much too politely. But then it's a great feeling to find someone who knows. Sharing war stories and whatnot.

Backtracking is relatively rare. Thankfully. Because wow is that a pain. Sometimes a shattered bead can be hidden or replaced, so that's fine, but if one winds up too tight for a needle to fit through again, while all of the others are still fine... yes, that can mean taking out a whole row. Or more. Just to replace that bead. One learns to pay attention as much as possible to what it feels like when the needle goes through the first time.

Argh, pricing. I go back and forth so many times. I guess a key factor is "how much would it take for me to do this again?" but that's obviously just a part of it.
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:iconpahein:
pahein Featured By Owner Jun 13, 2011  Professional General Artist
Yes. That is definitely a paragraph I wholeheartedly agree with. My poor needles. I've murdered them by the hundreds, but they died for a good cause. ;__;

That seems like a blessing. Time-consuming work is almost psychologically painful to redo. I know I had to redo the coloring on my Mew at least a couple times, because I had a shortage of pink. At first, I used a deeper pink, but I didn't have enough of that. I thought I could get more, so I did some deep blue eyes. But then I realized I could card white into the pink, still get a decent color without too much fiddling, and then be able to cover more. So I did that. But then the eyes were too dark. So I redid those. And then finally my needlefelting store got a different decent pink that I had to completely recover the Mew in, which was cool except I'd spent at least ten hours on the first two pinks combined. So all in all if I'd been patient I could've saved myself a lot of trouble... although the eyes weren't much trouble. I love making eyes. :heart:

That sounds like a better method than I have now. Being so new to needlefelting, my prices are low, but then I do something and then I'm like "I totally underpriced myself for this." So I expect my prices to nearly skyrocket in the future for the larger things. Which... is probably not so good. I need to do more examples of my small stuff.
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner Jun 18, 2011  Professional General Artist
No one would ever think that wool could be so destructive. It is the soft and silent killer... of needles. Ahem.

Clearly I just like to pretend/believe that everything works out perfectly the first time and forget the details. *grin* It sounds like your Mew was a magnificent monster to create, but geez the results are still so awesome. I still just pick now and again, so I can hardly imagine the effort of making something that big.

Well, maybe your prices can climb little by little. I've been trying to steadily adjust; older stuff stays where it is since I didn't have a much practice and was still learning techniques. The things I've been exploring for years are going to be more because I actually know what I'm doing and how long it takes. Then again there will always be people to complain about everything. ...Of course, I sort of wonder if I'm capable of doing simple things anymore...
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(1 Reply)
:iconmoonwaterlily:
MoonWaterLily Featured By Owner Jun 8, 2011  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
It's wonderful how you can put so much effort on something you love, not always does that happen with people... Please don't mind the people that don't respect that, I think they're pitiful because their disrespect comes from not having anything to dedicate themselves to.. At least that's what I believe.
Please go on creating such beautiful works! I'm really thankful that you're willing to share photos of them with us!
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:iconmoonwaterlily:
MoonWaterLily Featured By Owner Jun 8, 2011  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
It's wonderful how you can put so much effort on something you love, not always does that happen with people... Please don't mind the people that don't respect that, I think they're pitiful because their disrespect comes from not having anything to dedicate themselves to.. At least that's what I believe.
Please go on creating such beautiful works! I'm really thankful that you're willing to share photos of them with us!
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner Jun 8, 2011  Professional General Artist
Again, I'm honestly not sure how I manage to do these things. *grin* It must be an odd form of meditation. Only I wind up with something shiny at the end!

Thank you so very much again! I'm so happy to wander DA in awe of the artistic talent and devotion, and I never really expected anyone to do the same with my works. Heh.
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:iconnerdsharpie:
nerdsharpie Featured By Owner May 22, 2011  Student General Artist
O.O WOW.
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner May 23, 2011  Professional General Artist
Thank you... I think. *grin* It could have been a terror-filled wow...
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:iconnerdsharpie:
nerdsharpie Featured By Owner May 23, 2011  Student General Artist
:-D
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:iconseranaide:
Seranaide Featured By Owner Feb 7, 2011  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
I think I never opened my eyes as much as I did when I saw this picture xD amazing,a true work of patience!
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner Feb 17, 2011  Professional General Artist
Aw, thank you! ...I think. I mean, I hope it didn't shock you. *grin* Yeah, my patience is... sort of frightening. But it's worth it for shiny things!
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:iconseranaide:
Seranaide Featured By Owner Feb 18, 2011  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
oh yeah! and no,it didn't shock me,I was just glady surpised xD
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:iconcdsh:
CDSH Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2010  Student General Artist
Dear god, woman, you are magical with those beads! OAO" I don't play around with beads nearly often enough, and yet my supply is slowly bouncing its way along my floor anyways....
Jeez, maybe I'll do some beading tomorrow instead of homework. That'll be a good use of time~ xD

*eye twitch* That cuff... That beautiful, mind-boggling cuff.... I wonder if it'll still be there by the time I get a job. xD Which won't be for another year or so, unfortunately.
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2010  Professional General Artist
Thanks so much again! As I say all the time, I just have unnatural patience. And the ability to quickly forget how much time and effort something took soon after I've finished it. (This is not always a good thing...)

And no worries, I can always make the cuff again. So long as I can't remember how long the first one took. Heh.
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:icondeath-pony7:
Death-Pony7 Featured By Owner Jul 14, 2010  Professional General Artist
The beads you're using are much smaller than I imagined. They make my materials look massive.

You should check out some of the Tuskarora bumpy beadwork. I think it will give you some ideas.
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner Jul 25, 2010  Professional General Artist
They are INSANELY small. There was a thought I had, a while back, to work my way up through larger and larger beads... but that has obviously not happened.

And even a quick search proves dangerous indeed, hm...
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:icondeath-pony7:
Death-Pony7 Featured By Owner Jul 28, 2010  Professional General Artist
The smaller beads can be more impressive, regardless of the size of the piece. The main reason I don't use seed beads is because they'd break on the wire.

I have a few friends from the Pamunkey tribe who are heading up to NY to learn the 3-D beading method. It's a lost art down here and they're trying to gain it back.
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:icongabrielsangel:
gabrielsangel Featured By Owner May 26, 2010  Student Artist
God Orin... YOU ARE INCREDIBLE!! :D THAT SITAR!!! :drool:
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner Jun 3, 2010  Professional General Artist
I think the word you are looking for is still "insane". *grin* But thank you!
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:icongabrielsangel:
gabrielsangel Featured By Owner Jun 4, 2010  Student Artist
Well, sometimes insane is a good thing! :D
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:iconcosplaypropsetc:
CosplayPropsEtc Featured By Owner May 8, 2010
I know EXACTLY how you feel. It's a bummer and when selling stuff is one of your primary sources of money, you tend to gear your shop with what is easier/cheaper to make, just to make anything at all. >_< At least that is why I sell what I do on ebay, NOONE is willing to pay what it takes to make stuff.. I have a few regulars who understand the meaning of 'hand crafted' but they are gems.
We live in a world of machines in china and walmarts.. :sad: Just keep on keeping on, and those who get it will come. :) It's totally worth it! Your stuff is awesome!
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner May 10, 2010  Professional General Artist
I mean, it's not like (most) artists just do work and expect it all to be bought up right away, but... it'd sure be nice. *grin* And every single I time I look up at my crazy little one-winged Sephiroth plush, I'm amazed by the work that so obviously took. Oddly enough, I have to be reminded that the rupee took three days. *snort* Odd perception. Anyway.

But, I have been working mostly on "show pieces" lately just to see how far I can push myself. I guess... pretty far, looks like. Yikes.

Anyway, thank you! And you know you have much stuff made of awesomeness yourself. Maybe at some point when I'm not running around frantically I'll be open to trades again. Mmm, bartering.
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:iconcosplaypropsetc:
CosplayPropsEtc Featured By Owner May 14, 2010
Yes Mam! :3 It would be awesome to do a trade again!
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:iconuser-name-not-found:
user-name-not-found Featured By Owner May 6, 2010  Student Artisan Crafter
WOW, I didn't know you didn't have a loom. That really changes the way I look at your work. I wouldn't even know how to do flat work like that.. This is really amazing. I'm sorry that people have been mean to you about prices. I when to a craft fair recently and sold only 1 thing for a dollar... I was so dissaopitnted because the table was 15 ( was originally 30 but I shared it with someone) I was not going to lower my price because it wouldn't have made it worth it, I wasn't even going to cover my materials.So I totally know what you mean there. Sorry people are such asses. Tell me who so I can kick their head in....
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner May 6, 2010  Professional General Artist
While technically I do have a tiny loom... I have never used it. I should probably give it away. Anyway, thank you. It seems to be celebrating insanity, but so long as it's shiny insanity. *grin*

Yeah, I know how that goes. A couple of years ago I attended a holiday craft show and sold one $5 bracelet. I suppose it might just be knowing your audience, as I've managed to do well enough to completely restock after 2 years in the Artists Alley at a local anime convention. And there is always online, though... advertising is kind of a pain.

For the most part, people aren't jerks. This is good. *grin* But I fear spoiled brats are everywhere and bothering artists all the time. So now I have something to point to before I start yelling?
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:iconkubusrubus:
KubusRubus Featured By Owner May 5, 2010  Professional General Artist
Wait, what? You mean you don't just print these out on a bead printer like everyone else? :omg:
Noone that hasn't worked manually appreciates craftsmanship :| I come across this time and time again in my work as well
(the trades I mean, not what I post here)
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner May 5, 2010  Professional General Artist
WHERE DO YOU GET THESE BEAD PRINTERS AND DO THEY COME IN BLACK?!?!?! ......Oooohhh. Dammit.

I can understand not thinking about it. I'm sure there are plenty of things I'm a jerk about without knowing it. *grin* Luckily, building things has made me more aware. There's a multimedia sculptural piece I bought from someone, for instance, that was already heavily damaged. I loved it, though, and spent a lot time restoring it, really gaining an appreciation for all of the work that had seemed so simple before.

Of course I've also built computers. ...While there is an art and a science to it, most of that is just yelling expletives and guesswork.
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:iconkubusrubus:
KubusRubus Featured By Owner May 6, 2010  Professional General Artist
Only aluminum, its a mac-ripoff design thing :iconstaresplz:

I really don't remember ever not having an appreciation for manual labor. Probably because I've been doing it basically all of my conscious life ;)

Well, no offense meant but computers are assembled rather than built (and I've done it way before plug and play) though of course it takes experience and skill to do it quickly and make sure they run without conflicts.
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner May 10, 2010  Professional General Artist
*sigh* This is a shame.

Well that'll do it, yeah. *grin* I remember from my earliest days just watching my father build stuff and it was always fascinating.

Oh no, totally understood. I would argue that rebuilding exceedingly old computers is a little assembly, a little building, a little art and a lot of madness, though. *grin* There is no way some of that should have worked, and yet it did.
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:iconwhes:
Whes Featured By Owner May 5, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
Really? You only have a hundred stray beads rolling around on the floor? I'd probably be somewhere in the thousands by now... D:

Um...so, I'm sorry I never appreciated how ridiculously fine and involved the work is that goes into these. I often find myself thinking, "Orin should do more advanced work." But now I'm thinking, what could possibly be more advanced?!

I'm sorry I know nothing about jewelry. :(
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner May 5, 2010  Professional General Artist
...Well, alright, there are probably more than 100 "lost to time and vacuums and whatever else". I try to be careful, is the point. But trying only helps so much. They bounce, you see. And they bounce very high. I never would have believed it, either.

Aw, don't worry about it. Really, it should be a compliment in that it all looks so simple. And I do make an effort not to complain about it. I mean, I do love beading, it's just... sometimes it feels like it doesn't love me back? *grin* I do have plenty of ideas for slightly different things rolling around, though, so I really do have to get to those. Even if they'll... probably take even longer. *rubs temples* Must repress, must repress...
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:iconwhes:
Whes Featured By Owner May 5, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
Oh, I know! Make a beaded evening gown. No, a wedding dress! NO! An Elizabethan costume! Yes, do that one. ;D
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner May 10, 2010  Professional General Artist
...You want me dead, don't you? *grin*
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:iconwhes:
Whes Featured By Owner May 10, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
D8 My plan has been discovered! Abort!

XD
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:iconchimeradragonfang:
ChimeraDragonfang Featured By Owner May 5, 2010
I've gotten into the habit of keeping sticky notes where I mark down how many hours - give or take a few minutes here and there - I've spent on any particular piece. Some of them add up to appallingly huge numbers. (81 hours is the longest so far, I think.) It is sad but true that a lot of people don't understand exactly how much work goes into making things out of such bitty little beads.
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:iconwickedorin:
wickedorin Featured By Owner May 5, 2010  Professional General Artist
I fear the idea of trying to add up all of the hours on some of this stuff. It would become horrifying. I sort of just accept that I have an idea of how many days of my life I've spent on something and then try to forget. *grin* I love what I do, it just... hurts sometimes.

Though on the flip side, I do understand severe over-pricing. I have stumbled across some things on Etsy that gets my jaw falling to the floor over how much someone is asking for what (to me) amounts to 2-3 hours of work. But, if people are buying it, then... good for them (and how do I get in on it?! *snort*).

(On a side note, your little beaded dragons are so adorable. I might have to make one for myself. Of course, knowing me I'll get carried away with "I wonder what would happen if I tried this..." Fast forward three months and I'll have a "life-sized" version...)
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